dtg
Junior Member
Posts: 7
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Post by dtg on Jul 17, 2024 18:23:27 GMT -5
Hi all-- New member here with a '52 CJ3A currently running a Solex. Jeep runs relatively well--with one exception. After getting up to temp, if I turn off the Jeep the fuel will leak out (boil over) into the intake manifold. It then becomes flooded and very hard to start. (Cold starts do not seem to be an issue). Note I've put in a new heat riser spring which seems to have fixed the heat riser (which I originally thought was the problem). Searching online, it seems this problem exists with Solex carbs, yet I've not found a good recommended solution. I'm looking for advice on options: a) Live with it b) Try rebuilding the Solex (rebuild kits ~$50) c) Buy a new Solex (new carbs are ~$150) d) Switch to a Carter WO Options for a WO are: a) Buy new (~$400) b) Buy new (China) on eBay (~$150) c) Buy a core on eBay and rebuild (~$50 for core and ~$50 for rebuild kit) Questions: a) Anyone have any ideas on what could be causing the hot soak flooding? (My guess would be float leaking or needle worn/not seating but not sure what else...my worry is that if this is common with a Solex then I might just be spending $$ on a rebuild only to end up with the same problem). Some have suggested fuel pump pressure (I currently have an electric pump, but don't know the pressure. Even if I did I've not been able to find a pressure regulator that seems to work...and there seems to be no consensus on "how much" pressure is correct...) b) If I switch to a WO, I'm concerned that I might not have all the necessary parts (a "diffuser" is often mentioned as not coming with the new carbs--but I have no idea what that is referencing--and I'm expecting there are other parts I may need as well). c) I'm tempted by the new Carter WO's available from China--does anyone have any experience with these? Sound too good to be true for the price...but (as I don't even have a core) it's tough for me to determine if these are "correct" and will fit my CJ3A - see this posting for an example: www.ebay.com/itm/285599111274 -- if (for example) you look at the second to last photo, there seems to be linkage under the float chamber that has a "ball" end that I'm not sure is appropriate? But I also don't know if that really matters...can anyone weigh in and offer an opinion as to whether these eBay carbs will work? d) Lastly (and perhaps most importantly) will the WO be an improvement over the Solex? It seems that switching to a Solex was (at least at one point) a common thing--not sure if that's because they were cheaper, simpler, offered more power / performance or some other reason--(i.e. I'd hate to dump a few hundred into a WO and all the required secondary components (e.g. "diffuser") only to have the same problem. Any and all responses, opinions and advice appreciated. Happy to add any additional information to help diagnose as well. Thanks! |
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Post by Scoutpilot on Jul 18, 2024 3:10:49 GMT -5
Hi all-- New member here with a '52 CJ3A currently running a Solex. Welcome!Jeep runs relatively well--with one exception. After getting up to temp, if I turn off the Jeep the fuel will leak out (boil over) into the intake manifold. It then becomes flooded and very hard to start. (Cold starts do not seem to be an issue). Note I've put in a new heat riser spring which seems to have fixed the heat riser (which I originally thought was the problem). Replacing the spring only may not have solved an apparent issue with the heat riser valve. A simple test is to manually raise and let fall the balance weight at the end of the "lollipop" and listen for a clanging noise. No noise may indicate a broken valve.
Searching online, it seems this problem exists with Solex carbs, yet I've not found a good recommended solution. That is based on a higher-than-optimum fuel pressure to the Solex. The Solex, if an original French or German unit, works best at 1 to 1.5 PSI fuel pressure.
I'm looking for advice on options: a) Live with it Not necessary.
b) Try rebuilding the Solex (rebuild kits ~$50) Only if an original French/German carb.
c) Buy a new Solex (new carbs are ~$150) Please, no.
d) Switch to a Carter WO Original factory carburetor is a WO 636SA.Options for a WO are: a) Buy new (~$400) New original (NOS) ones are not available.
b) Buy new (China) on eBay (~$150) Please, again, no.
c) Buy a core on eBay and rebuild (~$50 for core and ~$50 for rebuild kit) All well and good until you find a vacuum leak in the throttle shaft/bores.Questions: a) Anyone have any ideas on what could be causing the hot soak flooding? (My guess would be float leaking or needle worn/not seating but not sure what else...my worry is that if this is common with a Solex then I might just be spending $$ on a rebuild only to end up with the same problem). Some have suggested fuel pump pressure (I currently have an electric pump, but don't know the pressure. Even if I did I've not been able to find a pressure regulator that seems to work...and there seems to be no consensus on "how much" pressure is correct...) Please do not accept "consensus opinions" as facts. FACT: The Solex, if an original French or German unit, works best at 1 to 1.5 PSI fuel pressure. Into the weeds for a moment, please. Locate and purchase a Diagnostic Vacuum/Fuel Pressure Gauge and plumb it into the fuel line between the fuel pump and the carburetor. Check out my videos of customer carb testing on YouTube for the proper setup. Some adaptation will be necessary.
b) If I switch to a WO, I'm concerned that I might not have all the necessary parts (a "diffuser" is often mentioned as not coming with the new carbs--but I have no idea what that is referencing--and I'm expecting there are other parts I may need as well). The Diffuser Gasket is installed between the carb and the manifold. Its purpose is to more thoroughly mix the fuel and air flowing to the manifold and then the cylinders. "Seal Tested" brand kits include this in the box.c) I'm tempted by the new Carter WO's available from China--does anyone have any experience with these? Sound too good to be true for the price...but (as I don't even have a core) it's tough for me to determine if these are "correct" and will fit my CJ3A - see this posting for an example: www.ebay.com/itm/285599111274 -- if (for example) you look at the second to last photo, there seems to be linkage under the float chamber that has a "ball" end that I'm not sure is appropriate? But I also don't know if that really matters...can anyone weigh in and offer an opinion as to whether these eBay carbs will work? An absolute NO on a Chinese copy of a copy. The units sold by Joe's Motor Pool are much better than they used to be. I know a dealer who is a rep for them and he stands behind what he sells. As to the lever with the ball attachment. It allows the carburetor to be connected, via an adjustable linkage, to a belt-driven Governor. The Governor controls the RPM when used with a PTO winch, generator/welder, or a rear drum for a belt drive device like a saw, pump, etc.d) Lastly (and perhaps most importantly) will the WO be an improvement over the Solex? It seems that switching to a Solex was (at least at one point) a common thing--not sure if that's because they were cheaper, simpler, offered more power / performance or some other reason--(i.e. I'd hate to dump a few hundred into a WO and all the required secondary components (e.g. "diffuser") only to have the same problem. The Solex was a cheap alternative to a Carter. A properly adjusted Carter WO can't be beat. As long as the rest of the motor systems, i.e., electrical, ignition, air supply, fuel supply, as well as a motor that has good compression and proper cooling system.Any and all responses, opinions and advice appreciated. Happy to add any additional information to help diagnose as well. Thanks! Keep in mind that other possible issues may be occurring.
1. The timing may be too far advanced. This leads to overheating.
2. A "too lean" mixture setting will cause overheating.
Ethanol fuel will boil at a lower temperature than non-ethanol gas. Excess pressure in the bowl forces fuel past the metering valve and into the manifold.
If you wish, we can discuss the purchase of a fully restored, by me, with a warranty, WO 636SA. $350.00 plus shipping.
I hope this helps.
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dtg
Junior Member
Posts: 7
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Post by dtg on Jul 18, 2024 8:53:07 GMT -5
Thanks for the detailed response  Couple of follow-ups: a) I have a fuel pressure gauge on order - I'll see what that says (and will post my findings here), but I'm betting the electric pump I currently have is putting out more than 1.5 lbs...if so, then: b) Are there any reliable fuel pressure regulators that can drop the pressure down to that level? Or is there an electric fuel pump that works that ill put out that kind of low pressure (avoiding the need for a regulator)? The Jeep used to have a pressure regulator similar to this: www.amazon.com/RJSPHH-Regulator-Carburetor-Adjustable-Universal/dp/B092VCSLPV/ref=sr_1_19_sspa?sr=8-19-spons&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9tdGYBut it started leaking so I removed it. Even so, when it was installed it didn't solve the problem as it still had the hot soak issue (so I'm not sure it did anything). Have searched and found this regulator--curious if you would think this might work (or if you have any other recommendations): www.jegs.com/i/JEGS/555/15911/10002/-1c) Thanks for explaining the diffuser--looked on KW and seems to be this: www.kaiserwillys.com/products/carburetor-to-manifold-gasket-fits-41-53-mb-gpw-cj-2a-3a-m38-truck-staion-wagon-with-4-134-l-engine/d) Wasn't aware of Joe's Motor Pool (thanks) - unfortunately it looks like their Carter carbs are out of stock...are you aware of any other suppliers that offer a new replacement of satisfactory quality? I see KW have one, but it seems it may be the same Chinese units? www.kaiserwillys.com/products/new-show-quality-carter-carburetor-reproduction-wo-fits-41-53-mb-gpw-cj-2a-3a-m38-truck-station-wagon/e) Is there an easy way to tell if my Solex is of French / German origin? f) Heat riser seems good (I can move the lollypop and hear/feel the valve as you describe). Plus my old spring didn't really move the valve correctly (and the PO has bent this to try and accommodate--in addition the little "shim" that goes into the slot in the lollypop was missing, so the lollypop was never indexed properly to the shaft--but all seems well now). g) Does the Carter WO also require 1.5 lbs of pressure (or are they more tolerant of higher pressure)? h) Will check the timing and mixture as you suggest as well... Thanks-- sincerely appreciate all your help!! |
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Post by Scoutpilot on Jul 18, 2024 9:48:16 GMT -5
You're welcome! Many of us have learned over the years a thought process and purchasing doctrine that comes from a wise old man we are all familiar with. “ The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.” ― Benjamin FranklinIf you wish to have a consistent correct fuel pressure don't skimp on the money. You might look to Summit Racing for reasonable practical alternatives. I have to say the KW price for a diffuser is steep. Look to G503 or Peter DeBella. For the Reproduction Carter WO which, as you know, is only available as the WO 539S used for MBs and GPWs, check with Sal Walter at Vintage Jeeper. Determining the origin of your Solex is as simple as reading the markings on yours. If there is nothing to indicate its origin, then you can assume it came from India, or China. The indicators of a properly set and functioning heat riser are; when cold, the lollipop should be at a "Four O'clock" position and when warm, at a "Three O'clock" position as viewed from the front of the jeep. The Carter WO likes fuel pressure to be 2.5 to 3 PSI. The fuel pressure gauge should also be capable of measuring intake manifold vacuum. With this diagnostic tool many conditions can be determined and acted upon before they get out of hand. Please do get back with your results. |
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dtg
Junior Member
Posts: 7
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Post by dtg on Jul 18, 2024 10:37:13 GMT -5
Thanks - appreciate the references for more good parts sources!!
Now I'm curious - I'd assumed (naively) that all Carter WOs were the same.
What are the differences between the CJ3A's WO 636SA and the MB/GPW's WO 539S? (If I can only get the 539S new, will that work on the CJ3A?)
Thanks!
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Post by Scoutpilot on Jul 19, 2024 2:18:19 GMT -5
Internally the WO 440, 450S, 539S, 596S, 636S and SA, and 698S all function much the same and utilize the same basic internal components. Variations are found externally in the design of the throttle bases, the bowl, the levers and linkage, and the design and function of the bowl cover. The 440 has an unmarked throttle while the 450 sits on a throttle marked 200. The 539 sits on a 407 base and the 596 sits atop a 507 base. The 636 and 698 sit on a 505 base. Even with these differences all but the 440 are made to fit the Willys CJ L134 and will function equally well. Many times I receive carbs for restoration that are built from each of the different models. I call them "Carter Salads".
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dtg
Junior Member
Posts: 7
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Post by dtg on Jul 24, 2024 14:42:28 GMT -5
Ok, getting back with some additional information.
a) Timing reset to ~ 3 deg BTDC
b) Point gap is too small (couldn't adjust any larger than about 0.017...have new points on order (along with condenser, cap, rotor). Gap of course keeps dwell from being spot on also.
Hopefully all the above gets corrected once the new parts get installed...
c) Current electric fuel pump putting out 6.5 PSI - and betting that is the crux of my problem. Couldn't find a fuel pump (anywhere) putting out 1.5 but did locate one on Amazon that's 2.5 to 4 - so have that on order and will see how it works. If that still has an issue, I'll think about a fuel pressure regulator (but hoping that low pressure pump will work).
d) Vacuum gauge reading fluctuates between 16 and 17 (not sure what normal should be on a CJ3a but thinking at least a bit more than that). The fluctuations may mean worn guides or a sticky valve? (Would love your opinion on that). Expecting that with new points and getting the timing spot on at 5 before TDC that maybe the vacuum will pick up a bit. (Running some Marvel Mystery Oil in the sump and gas to hopefully aid if there are any sticking valves).
More to come--will keep you posted as to how the new fuel pump works out as well as the other parts updates.
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Post by Scoutpilot on Jul 24, 2024 18:27:25 GMT -5
Ok, getting back with some additional information. a) Timing reset to ~ 3 deg BTDC Basic timing is 5º BTDC and it is just a starting point based on the octane rating of your fuel.b) Point gap is too small (couldn't adjust any larger than about 0.017...have new points on order (along with condenser, cap, rotor). Gap of course keeps dwell from being spot on also. What Brand? Very important.Hopefully all the above gets corrected once the new parts get installed... c) Current electric fuel pump putting out 6.5 PSI - and betting that is the crux of my problem. Couldn't find a fuel pump (anywhere) putting out 1.5 but did locate one on Amazon that's 2.5 to 4 - so have that on order and will see how it works. If that still has an issue, I'll think about a fuel pressure regulator (but hoping that low pressure pump will work). As I stated above, Solex run at 1 to 1.5 PSI. More than that will give you grief.d) Vacuum gauge reading fluctuates between 16 and 17 (not sure what normal should be on a CJ3a but thinking at least a bit more than that). The fluctuations may mean worn guides or a sticky valve? (Would love your opinion on that). Expecting that with new points and getting the timing spot on at 5 before TDC that maybe the vacuum will pick up a bit. (Running some Marvel Mystery Oil in the sump and gas to hopefully aid if there are any sticking valves). The normal vacuum range is 15 - 21 inches.More to come--will keep you posted as to how the new fuel pump works out as well as the other parts updates. |
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dtg
Junior Member
Posts: 7
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Post by dtg on Aug 15, 2024 14:46:48 GMT -5
Next update: a) Installed a low-pressure fuel pump - putting out ~ 4 PSI (so not that low), but... b) Installed a fuel pressure regulator - have that adjusted so that the pressure is now between 1-1.5 PSI (according to an in-line fuel pressure gauge that I also installed...that hopefully is reading correctly (seems to work intermittently at best)) Boil over situation very much improved, but still there... Thinking my next step is now a rebuild kit, as I suspect the needle valve is leaking (no idea how old the carb is). Does seem to be a genuine Solex though (as it has Solex stampings that don't seem to be present on the knock-offs) Any thoughts? Seems a rebuild kit will be about $50 (give or take). At this point I'd like to see if I can "solve" the problem with the Solex (kind of a puzzle now) - may eventually go to a Carter, but I don't want to admit defeat on this one...(yet). |
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dtg
Junior Member
Posts: 7
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Post by dtg on Aug 20, 2024 16:46:24 GMT -5
Hey @scoutpilot - any chance you might know what size needle valve would be on that Solex? I've found a site (bookmarked it somewhere) where I may be able to buy just the needle valve (and not a whole rebuild kit) but seems there are different sizes. Any thoughts? Don't want to take it apart just to find the needle size (and then have the Jeep "down" while I try and get parts.
(If not, I may get a full rebuild kit and make it a winter project...)
Oh--if I do rebuild, you wouldn't happen to know if there's an appropriate jet for the Solex for use in high-altitude situations? May as well take care of that if I've got it apart.
And I did find out the Solex was made in India (has that embossed where the banjo bolt screws in--very hard to see on the carb while in the Jeep, but took some pictures so I could enlarge other markings and happened to see that).
Thanks for any help!
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Post by Scoutpilot on Aug 20, 2024 17:08:25 GMT -5
Sorry. Since I don't normally deal with Solex, I can't help you there. You know what I think about Indian and Chinese Solex. Mike's Carburetor Parts may be able to help.
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