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Post by towhook on Mar 31, 2020 13:34:14 GMT -5
Tow---------It may be time to just go back to the beginning and step by step prepare the engine. 1. All gallery plugs in place, sprayer in place, cam plug in place. Oil float pickup screen clean and mount flange flat and sealed with a gasket. yes2. set the engine in static time TDC on # 1. You should feel the piston pumping compression against your thumb in the spark plug hole while the engine is coming up to TDC on number one. Index the oil pump into the cam and test fit the distributor. You want the oil pump when installed to twist into place and park with the correct distributor orientation. Now pull the pump straight down and mark the gear and body so that after spinning the pump to expel the air in the oil can, you orient the marks for return installation straight back up like you pulled it down. This should get your primed pump in the correct orientation. yes, I have done that. 3. take a oil pump that is tested to not lock up when tightened , or a good used one that passes shop manual inspection, and in your hand , submerge it in a can of oil and spin the gear until oil is pumped through it and the air is gone. Return it to your previous marks while submerged. No air that way. Install the pump as marked with a good gasket , holes all lined up. yep, did that to4. put 3 1/2 quarts of oil in the engine, and then hand pump another quart into the side gallery. You can pre- fill the filter canister the best you can also. yes, didn't fill the oil filter yet5. You should also have the distributor installed and with the timing at 5 degrees BTDC turn the distributor left, then back right until you just see the points begin to slightly open. Lock it down and you are static timed . If you are confused about which way it turns, you can rotate the crank clockwise standing in front of the radiator or front of the Jeep. It should turn CCW in the distributor in a gear driven engine. (WW2 are chain driven and turn opposite). The rotor should be pointing at the number one wire that leaves the distributor cap. then------1342 going around to the left. yes, I did that, pervious to my now just trying to spin the pump with out a gear6. If all is well, you should quickly see oil pressure on the gauge while spinning the engine over with the spark plugs out. I wish that I had, I bought a gauge at auto zone, it's a mech gauge I have trimmed the hose 2 times, and reread the directions 4 times7. I've never used vasoline and all the other crap. I've seen guys buy the 20# air/oil tank to pre-oil the engine, and then blow oil in through and completely out and then wonder why they have no oil pressure. 8. This system has never failed me as long as the engine is correctly assembled. It usually starts as soon as the plugs are in and the carb is choked. Lots of other things enter if it doesn't start but has oil pressure. We'll cross that bridge when we get there. Yes---------I've been there also------- quite a few bridges too. LOL. Oilly. thanks , ya no more vasline for me, it broke teeth of the pump gear. can't a ford the nice air over oil can. I didn't assb the engine so a few things are up in the air.
thanks for all the help
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Post by towhook on Mar 31, 2020 13:40:05 GMT -5
Oilly, let's not confuse him, especially needlessly. The oil pump in a chain-drive Go-Devil does not turn the opposite direction. The camshaft does, but the oil pump drive gear on the camshaft and the oil pump gear are cut in the opposite direction so that the pump and the distributor do turn counter-clockwise. They did this when they changed from chain to gears so that they would not need a different oil pump (except the gear) and distributor. Installing an oil pump that just came out of a bucket of oil does not sound like any fun, but you gotta do what you gotta do. I never have, and I've never packed a pump with Vaseline or any other grease. I squirt some oil into the inlet and outlet holes before I install the pump, and have never had any trouble getting oil pressure. Just lucky I guess. I don't know whether these pumps can pump air or not, but I think one in good shape should. They are a positive-displacement pump. The Melling pumps are just like a miniature Roots Blower, they work the same way. There have been so many posts by people with this same problem lately that I can't keep track of who's on first. I think it's time to pull the pan and check all of the gallery plugs and the jet, and the cam bearing, and the screen and the stand. So far, all of the others who have finally found their problem have found a plug or the jet absent. Just tryin' to help, B-dubya I have pulled the pan both plugs by the pump are in and tight, jet is there.
cam bearing ? do tell
yes, every one else seems to have had a quick end to there oil psi issue, i'm one of the lucky ones I guess
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Post by towhook on Mar 31, 2020 13:53:29 GMT -5
Thanks Bruce. It's been 17 years since I built my MB engine (hard for me to fathom that) and I mentioned it off the top of my head. Your Jeep manual in your head is in better shape than mine--------LOL. All else fails, read the manual. I too have noticed allot of the "No Oil Pressure" threads. I think the only plug he hasn't checked is the front gallery plug behind the cam gear and front motor plate. He never mentioned if the cam soft plug at the rear of the camshaft was in or replaced, and nothing about the camshaft bearing. He did say the machine shop assembled it but not exactly how much. He needs to start over and check off all the possibles from scratch. What else should he check off the list I made that I missed? if the rear oil plug was out, i'd have oil dripping out the bell housing. and it's dry
as for that front plug behind the motor plate, in front of the oil pump. I have not been able to verify that plug, if I remove the fuel pump and oil line right next to it I can check to see if it's there. yay for removing stuff I put on all ready
cam shaft bearings were replaced, as were the rod bearings I assume that they are in right...... the machine shop did assb the bottom end ( crank / cam bearings/ pistons/ rods )
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oilleaker1
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Post by oilleaker1 on Mar 31, 2020 17:09:19 GMT -5
Tow, you can't see the plug from the fuel pump or oil line hole. Seems to me it's covered with the front motor plate and it would leak down from behind the plate and gasket if it's out or not installed and not into the motor that much. My guess is it's there if they installed the other plugs. I really think you are good to try. Once primed in the gallery, you should see 10-15 lbs of oil pressure as soon as the oil filter is full and the system backs up against the pump. Probably in less than a minute of cranking with the starter.
Send round trip tickets , have beer, and a lawn chair and we'll be there. Oops, scratch that, the virus has ruined it for us. Life sucks right now. Oilly
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Post by brucew on Mar 31, 2020 21:36:06 GMT -5
How are you "sealing" the pump to block connection? i'm using permatex make a gasket, not rtv. Are you using a gasket? B-dubya
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Post by oilleaker1 on Apr 1, 2020 6:34:24 GMT -5
Great catch there BW! That oil needs to be channeled and kept in the oil passage ways Tow!!!!!!!!! You need a real gasket there. I once had a engine that the overhaul kit supplied the wrong oil pressure relief housing gasket. It leaked in between but fit the outside perimeter. It had no oil pressure at idle all because of this wrong gasket.
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Post by towhook on Apr 1, 2020 10:29:46 GMT -5
Tow, you can't see the plug from the fuel pump or oil line hole. Seems to me it's covered with the front motor plate and it would leak down from behind the plate and gasket if it's out or not installed and not into the motor that much. My guess is it's there if they installed the other plugs. I really think you are good to try. Once primed in the gallery, you should see 10-15 lbs of oil pressure as soon as the oil filter is full and the system backs up against the pump. Probably in less than a minute of cranking with the starter. Send round trip tickets , have beer, and a lawn chair and we'll be there. Oops, scratch that, the virus has ruined it for us. Life sucks right now. Oilly i opened up my spare engine. and got a loc of that plug
I was able to get to it via the front oil gallery plug, that hides behind the fuel pump
to day I did the drill spinning the oil pump. no go on the gauge. ( I am running the drill in rev ) put oil, via a hand pump in the rear oil gallery used one 6 or 8 oz can spun it again. notta poured oil into the filter, and down the center spun it the pump, notta
fired up the shop air, and got it to a tad over 30 psi put air gun up to the rear gallery port.
air didn't seems to wanta go in, when I did the full 30 psi, it went to the oil pan an gluged. pervious when I did that, I used more air ( maybe 40 or 50 psi ), and it didn't go to the oil pan. I have oil dripping from the cam/ crank when I opened it the other week
should I pull the filter all together, fill it with oil and try ?
I did remove the just redone fuel pump that I got back in jan/ feb ( thanks for the extra gaskets ) and pulled the oil line, and 90% fitting, and the front oil plug was in the block.
i'm going to email walcks 4wd, he's 4-5 hours from home. i'm not sure if he works on stuff, or just does parts ? he's 40 mins from my parents. when the sickness is over I'll probly take the engine to him.
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Post by towhook on Apr 1, 2020 10:39:02 GMT -5
i'm using permatex make a gasket, not rtv. Are you using a gasket? B-dubya I am not , they are out of stock for another week or longer so I used whats left of the old gasket and some permatex form-a-gasket it's all I got rite now
funny we have the same first letters in our names B.W.
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Post by brucew on Apr 1, 2020 12:15:54 GMT -5
You need a gasket. No, you NEED a gasket. Some places, the modern stuff just doesn’t work. I especially can see trouble coming with trying to apply tube-gasket to an oily pump that just came out of a bucket of oil. Gaskets-in-a-tube work best on clean dry surfaces that are specially prep at mfg for that. I can send you some gaskets. B-dubya
What - wait. I just remembered something. A friend had a similar problem. Had the pump off several times. Used up some of my extra gaskets. Put #2 Permatex on the gasket every time. I finally took the pump apart and found a chunk of gasket sealer holding the relief valve open. You need a gasket, and it needs to be dry, or sprayed with Copper-Coat or Red-Tack. B-dubya
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Post by towhook on Apr 2, 2020 12:35:21 GMT -5
You need a gasket. No, you NEED a gasket. Some places, the modern stuff just doesn’t work. I especially can see trouble coming with trying to apply tube-gasket to an oily pump that just came out of a bucket of oil. Gaskets-in-a-tube work best on clean dry surfaces that are specially prep at mfg for that. I can send you some gaskets. B-dubya What - wait. I just remembered something. A friend had a similar problem. Had the pump off several times. Used up some of my extra gaskets. Put #2 Permatex on the gasket every time. I finally took the pump apart and found a chunk of gasket sealer holding the relief valve open. You need a gasket, and it needs to be dry, or sprayed with Copper-Coat or Red-Tack. B-dubya the pump is currently sealed up and not leaking, should I pull the pump and undo that bolt u speak off ? and what should I look for ?is there a pring I may lose across the garage floor ? I have 2 pumps that I've had in this block so far odd that they both have issues ? with the world in the state it is, not sure when they will be here, and I would have needed 6 gaskets for as often as I have pulled these pumps
today for poops and giggles I put air in the same rear galley of my spare block ( that I have on the stand ), air didn't come back to the pump ( pump was off, had the holes covered with tape ) air came out inside the block ? couldn't see were. put brake cleaner in the galley, then air. brake cleaner came out the under the rear main of the crank !
I have a feeling I have a issue with that bearing ??
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Post by brucew on Apr 2, 2020 13:52:02 GMT -5
I would think that, under normal circumstances, with the oiling system closed up as it would normally be ( there would always be a bit of leakage at the bearings), that would have resulted in the tape being blown off of the hole that matches up to the pump’s output port. The air (and the oil) has an easier route out somewhere. I think it is a direct shot from the port where the oil pressure gauge connects to the block to the rear main bearing, so it’s likely your brake cleaner would go there. Did it drip out, dribble out, or spray out? Can you tell if that’s where the air is escaping? B-dubya
Edit: Are you saying that the brake cleaner came out from under the rear main seal, to the outside? Is the oil pan still (or back) on the engine? B-dubya
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oilleaker1
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Post by oilleaker1 on Apr 2, 2020 16:46:20 GMT -5
You need a gasket. No, you NEED a gasket. Some places, the modern stuff just doesn’t work. I especially can see trouble coming with trying to apply tube-gasket to an oily pump that just came out of a bucket of oil. Gaskets-in-a-tube work best on clean dry surfaces that are specially prep at mfg for that. I can send you some gaskets. B-dubya What - wait. I just remembered something. A friend had a similar problem. Had the pump off several times. Used up some of my extra gaskets. Put #2 Permatex on the gasket every time. I finally took the pump apart and found a chunk of gasket sealer holding the relief valve open. You need a gasket, and it needs to be dry, or sprayed with Copper-Coat or Red-Tack. B-dubya the pump is currently sealed up and not leaking, should I pull the pump and undo that bolt u speak off ? and what should I look for ?is there a pring I may lose across the garage floor ? I have 2 pumps that I've had in this block so far odd that they both have issues ? with the world in the state it is, not sure when they will be here, and I would have needed 6 gaskets for as often as I have pulled these pumps
today for poops and giggles I put air in the same rear galley of my spare block ( that I have on the stand ), air didn't come back to the pump ( pump was off, had the holes covered with tape ) air came out inside the block ? couldn't see were. put brake cleaner in the galley, then air. brake cleaner came out the under the rear main of the crank !
I have a feeling I have a issue with that bearing ??
BW is saying if you used permatex gasket maker, it could have dumped the squished rim of it into the oil pump and lodged at the relief valve, holding it open. The cap plug holds the spring against the valve. The valve could be bullet shaped or a round ball. It has to seat in order for oil pressure to build. You can take the cap plug off the oil pump without a disaster other than some oil leaking. Then Pull out the valve with a magnet and see if all is clean.
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Post by brucew on Apr 2, 2020 17:53:07 GMT -5
OK, now I see that the brake cleaner and air trick was pulled on the spare engine. Let’s try to concentrate on one at a time, and not confuse the issue. It’s bad enough having several people with the same problem to keep track of, without one of them having two engines with a similar problem. B-dubya
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Post by towhook on Apr 3, 2020 12:37:56 GMT -5
I would think that, under normal circumstances, with the oiling system closed up as it would normally be ( there would always be a bit of leakage at the bearings), that would have resulted in the tape being blown off of the hole that matches up to the pump’s output port. The air (and the oil) has an easier route out somewhere. I think it is a direct shot from the port where the oil pressure gauge connects to the block to the rear main bearing, so it’s likely your brake cleaner would go there. Did it drip out, dribble out, or spray out? Can you tell if that’s where the air is escaping? B-dubya Edit: Are you saying that the brake cleaner came out from under the rear main seal, to the outside? Is the oil pan still (or back) on the engine? B-dubya I did do that process on the spare engine, and wandered why does the air not go to the pump, i'd think my good engine should do the same. the break cleaner did drip out of the rear bearing cap. when I do it on the good ? engine in the 3b the air goes to the pump and down to the pan. which engine is doing it wrong ?
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Post by towhook on Apr 3, 2020 12:46:01 GMT -5
I have a feeling I have a issue with that bearing ??
BW is saying if you used permatex gasket maker, it could have dumped the squished rim of it into the oil pump and lodged at the relief valve, holding it open. The cap plug holds the spring against the valve. The valve could be bullet shaped or a round ball. It has to seat in order for oil pressure to build. You can take the cap plug off the oil pump without a disaster other than some oil leaking. Then Pull out the valve with a magnet and see if all is clean. got ya, I can pull that bolt/cap off today and check it out.
I had the wife help me at lunch, so she pulled the plug oil psi plug of the galley and I ran the drill to turn the pump. the pump pumped . it took a min but it did pump. how can I verify that the oil pump is getting oil around the engine ? can I pull the top off the filter and watch for it ?
I half wander if the oil psi gauge is bad ?
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