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Post by towhook on Mar 24, 2020 12:27:51 GMT -5
ok I put in my spare oil pump on my engine , took the pump from the engine on the stand. ( the oil pump has no gear ) used a drill with a flat head screw driver that I cut up from harbor freight. and Waola no oil psi. I didn't seal up the pump great, so as I pumped oil in to the block from the oil psi port/ galley I was pushing oil out threw the pump mating surface. ( I used a hand pump oil can ) didn't leak but just a tad as I had the drill turning the pump. did a but more if I reversed the drill. glad I had a bowl on the floor to catch it all.
could or would that front plug missing under the timing cover cause that ?
time for bike ride, and then work later.
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oilleaker1
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Post by oilleaker1 on Mar 24, 2020 13:48:05 GMT -5
If the oil pump is just pumping the gallery out a hole back into the oil pan, yes, nothing will show on the gauge. Can you spray air into the gallery with a rubber tipped spray nozzle where the oil gauge would mount and hear air leaking out somewhere?
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Post by brucew on Mar 24, 2020 19:03:06 GMT -5
Don’t forget, the oil pump turns counter-clockwise as viewed from above. You’ll have to use a reversible drill, in reverse. B-dubya
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Post by towhook on Mar 30, 2020 13:18:12 GMT -5
If the oil pump is just pumping the gallery out a hole back into the oil pan, yes, nothing will show on the gauge. Can you spray air into the gallery with a rubber tipped spray nozzle where the oil gauge would mount and hear air leaking out somewhere? I did use shop air be fore to push the oil in the galley ( were I pump oil in , and plug the oil psi gauge) i didn't listen for leaks me go do that in a few mins
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Post by towhook on Mar 30, 2020 13:19:12 GMT -5
Don’t forget, the oil pump turns counter-clockwise as viewed from above. You’ll have to use a reversible drill, in reverse. B-dubya thanks , did try both ways. but now I know for sure
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Post by towhook on Mar 30, 2020 13:33:24 GMT -5
Don’t forget, the oil pump turns counter-clockwise as viewed from above. You’ll have to use a reversible drill, in reverse. B-dubya thanks , did try both ways. but now I know for sure pump is leaking were it mounds to the block if oil can run out, air can get it. let me pull the pump and re seal it over nite, and try tues. i'll hit it with the shop air before I pull the pump off. i'm gonna use 20-30 psi max, and take a lissen.
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Post by towhook on Mar 30, 2020 13:49:45 GMT -5
If the oil pump is just pumping the gallery out a hole back into the oil pan, yes, nothing will show on the gauge. Can you spray air into the gallery with a rubber tipped spray nozzle where the oil gauge would mount and hear air leaking out somewhere? the task is done ..........
the pump leaked were the pump meets the block, the pump shaft spun ( mine you I have no gear on it ) and I hear gurgling. air going in to the oil pan would be my guess, should I have a item to blocked the pump shaft from turning ? my thought is the air is taken the path of least resistance? when I put air in that same hole before, the oil pan didn't gurgle
I put the air threw the hole were the oil pressure sensor / oil psi gauge would go.
now i'm stumped, shouldn't the air go up and threw the system ? i'll reseal the pump and get the shaft to not turn and retest tues.
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Post by Scoutpilot on Mar 30, 2020 14:07:46 GMT -5
How are you "sealing" the pump to block connection? Is there a pressure control spring in it?
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Post by brucew on Mar 30, 2020 14:16:55 GMT -5
There’s one I haven’t seen before. You just turned your oil pump into an air motor. The air coming from the output side is causing the rotor and shaft to turn in a backwards direction, and the air is exhausting thru the pickup screen into the oil pan. If a gear was in place, the shaft would not be able to turn and air would not be able to pass thru the pump. It would seem to me though, that if a galley plug were left out, the air would, as you said, take the path of least resistance, and exit thru that hole rather than go through the pump. Why is oil leaking between the pump and block? Did you not put a gasket in there, or is there a piece of an old gasket on the block? Again, if the pump can get air, it won’t pump oil. If it leaks oil out when you pressurized it with air, maybe air is leaking in when the pump works (or tries to) as a pump. BW
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oilleaker1
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Post by oilleaker1 on Mar 30, 2020 18:18:30 GMT -5
Tow---------It may be time to just go back to the beginning and step by step prepare the engine.
1. All gallery plugs in place, sprayer in place, cam plug in place. Oil float pickup screen clean and mount flange flat and sealed with a gasket.
2. set the engine in static time TDC on # 1. You should feel the piston pumping compression against your thumb in the spark plug hole while the engine is coming up to TDC on number one. Index the oil pump into the cam and test fit the distributor. You want the oil pump when installed to twist into place and park with the correct distributor orientation. Now pull the pump straight down and mark the gear and body so that after spinning the pump to expel the air in the oil can, you orient the marks for return installation straight back up like you pulled it down. This should get your primed pump in the correct orientation.
3. take a oil pump that is tested to not lock up when tightened , or a good used one that passes shop manual inspection, and in your hand , submerge it in a can of oil and spin the gear until oil is pumped through it and the air is gone. Return it to your previous marks while submerged. No air that way. Install the pump as marked with a good gasket , holes all lined up.
4. put 3 1/2 quarts of oil in the engine, and then hand pump another quart into the side gallery. You can pre- fill the filter canister the best you can also.
5. You should also have the distributor installed and with the timing at 5 degrees BTDC turn the distributor left, then back right until you just see the points begin to slightly open. Lock it down and you are static timed . If you are confused about which way it turns, you can rotate the crank clockwise standing in front of the radiator or front of the Jeep. It should turn CCW in the distributor in a gear driven engine. (WW2 are chain driven and turn opposite). The rotor should be pointing at the number one wire that leaves the distributor cap. then------1342 going around to the left.
6. If all is well, you should quickly see oil pressure on the gauge while spinning the engine over with the spark plugs out.
7. I've never used vasoline and all the other crap. I've seen guys buy the 20# air/oil tank to pre-oil the engine, and then blow oil in through and completely out and then wonder why they have no oil pressure.
8. This system has never failed me as long as the engine is correctly assembled. It usually starts as soon as the plugs are in and the carb is choked. Lots of other things enter if it doesn't start but has oil pressure. We'll cross that bridge when we get there. Yes---------I've been there also------- quite a few bridges too. LOL. Oilly
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Post by brucew on Mar 30, 2020 22:50:10 GMT -5
Oilly, let's not confuse him, especially needlessly. The oil pump in a chain-drive Go-Devil does not turn the opposite direction. The camshaft does, but the oil pump drive gear on the camshaft and the oil pump gear are cut in the opposite direction so that the pump and the distributor do turn counter-clockwise. They did this when they changed from chain to gears so that they would not need a different oil pump (except the gear) and distributor. Installing an oil pump that just came out of a bucket of oil does not sound like any fun, but you gotta do what you gotta do. I never have, and I've never packed a pump with Vaseline or any other grease. I squirt some oil into the inlet and outlet holes before I install the pump, and have never had any trouble getting oil pressure. Just lucky I guess. I don't know whether these pumps can pump air or not, but I think one in good shape should. They are a positive-displacement pump. The Melling pumps are just like a miniature Roots Blower, they work the same way. There have been so many posts by people with this same problem lately that I can't keep track of who's on first. I think it's time to pull the pan and check all of the gallery plugs and the jet, and the cam bearing, and the screen and the stand. So far, all of the others who have finally found their problem have found a plug or the jet absent. Just tryin' to help, B-dubya
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oilleaker1
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Post by oilleaker1 on Mar 31, 2020 5:10:28 GMT -5
Thanks Bruce. It's been 17 years since I built my MB engine (hard for me to fathom that) and I mentioned it off the top of my head. Your Jeep manual in your head is in better shape than mine--------LOL. All else fails, read the manual. I too have noticed allot of the "No Oil Pressure" threads. I think the only plug he hasn't checked is the front gallery plug behind the cam gear and front motor plate. He never mentioned if the cam soft plug at the rear of the camshaft was in or replaced, and nothing about the camshaft bearing. He did say the machine shop assembled it but not exactly how much. He needs to start over and check off all the possibles from scratch. What else should he check off the list I made that I missed?
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Post by brucew on Mar 31, 2020 10:59:22 GMT -5
I think your list is pretty complete. There are only a few places, really, where the oil can be dumped or air allowed into the pump. It’s not rocket surgery. The rear cam plug, if left out, doesn’t dump as much oil as one would think. Don’t ask me how I know. B-dubya
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Post by towhook on Mar 31, 2020 13:09:09 GMT -5
How are you "sealing" the pump to block connection? Is there a pressure control spring in it? i'm using permatex make a gasket, not rtv. i'd say that there is, the bolt is in place. the head it on the front side of the engine. I have not opened up either pump other then to inspect the gear at the bottom or swap the cam driven gear.
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Post by towhook on Mar 31, 2020 13:15:53 GMT -5
There’s one I haven’t seen before. You just turned your oil pump into an air motor. The air coming from the output side is causing the rotor and shaft to turn in a backwards direction, and the air is exhausting thru the pickup screen into the oil pan. If a gear was in place, the shaft would not be able to turn and air would not be able to pass thru the pump. It would seem to me though, that if a galley plug were left out, the air would, as you said, take the path of least resistance, and exit thru that hole rather than go through the pump. Why is oil leaking between the pump and block? Did you not put a gasket in there, or is there a piece of an old gasket on the block? Again, if the pump can get air, it won’t pump oil. If it leaks oil out when you pressurized it with air, maybe air is leaking in when the pump works (or tries to) as a pump. BW yep, i'm aways a first. lol
yes, didn't do a good job sealing up the pump to the block, yes the oil/ air leaking theory is the same as mine.
resealed the pump again to day i'll try again weds. put thread sealant on the bolts this time as well
still cleaning up from the heavy rain sat. got water in the garage and basement, didn't get as much work in today as I had wanted
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